So this isn't dismissive of your points - which I do understand, I just don't necessarily agree with entirely. But I made my point and I don't need to belabour them any further - I'm sure the whole board is tired of seeing essays float by.

It's not that I don't think Mitch is soft - I do. I think Mitch, Willy and Auston all play too soft. I don't need them hitting guys, but I do expect them to battle more when there is a battle to be had. That said, I do think with the right type of lineup support pieces in place they wouldn't have to battle as often.
- Monkeypunk

Oh, believe me, I'm well aware that I am not entitled a response from you (or anyone), I simply wished to throw my hat into the conversation.

Marner is not Patrick Kane and no amount of knuckleheads we add to the lineup is going to give him the space needed to succeed. Maybe he puts it all together at some point and learns how to play "truculent" hockey - but is the gamble worth 11.5M+ for 6-8 years?

As I said, the targeting reticle is on him because of his UFA status and being the last Core piece that isn't locked up for ridiculous bank.

You've said your piece, and I'm happy to engage with anyone who wants to agree/disagree with my position.

It's beyond aggravating seeing a player like Sam Reinhart - an excellent two-way forward who just scored 57 goals in a contract year - land a contract that is 2.5-3M less than what Mitch and Willie are earning (and no, I don't think FLA state taxes make that much of a the difference).

To wit: I hope the team lets Mitch walk and goes a different direction.

I know it's so (frank)ing annoying. And it's become a cliche but the tax thing is (frank)ing real and it's becoming an increasingly bigger influence as the Cap/salaries increase.

Don't believe all the bullpoop about RCA's and other "tax balances" because they are not meaningful. High income earners like guaranteed cash so you're competing with 50c on the dollar vs. 65c on the dollar in no tax states. It's a massive advantage.
- The Law

But for players living in Canada most of the season, the usd goes much further.

It's okay. I've made my points. You're free to disagree.

I firmly believe that you can have smaller players on your team and excel as long as you provide them with the right type of players to create time and space. In my opinion, if you put a line of nothing but Kane and two Kane clones, it would get crushed, smushed and smeared along the ice.

Because I believe that I also believe that Marner is wearing a lot of undue criticism because he was rarely put in a position to succeed. I did like when they had him out there with Knies, but of course he was with Captain Milquetoast (they were still even at 1-1) - and they had him on with Domi and Bertuzzi when Matthews was out - that line was +2 (2-0) despite being outplayed.

We'll see what happens, but too often I've seen from a Maple Leaf fan base a stubborn unwillingness to back down from unwarranted criticism; I figure there's too many people who've already written Marner off.
- Monkeypunk

Marner wanted and has been paid a "make it happen" wage. That's where the criticism comes in, when you're paying a player a top 10 salary in the league people don't want to have to validate a need for other players to prop him up, be it having to open space for him or anything else.

He gets paid make your own space money, and he had no trouble signing for it.

I like Shea Theodore - who wouldn't? - but he's not equivalent to Pronger. He's also left handed and we really need a 1RHD.
- Monkeypunk

The Leafs missed out a couple years where they should have been all in on Pietrangelo and Hamilton. That was the time they should have ensured they did what was needed. They chose to not do that, and they have been struggling to get a top RHD for this whole Matthews era.

They need a top pair elite RHD. Someone who is better then Reilly. Hard to come by for sure.

The Leafs missed out a couple years where they should have been all in on Pietrangelo and Hamilton. That was the time they should have ensured they did what was needed. They chose to not do that, and they have been struggling to get a top RHD for this whole Matthews era.

They need a top pair elite RHD. Someone who is better then Reilly. Hard to come by for sure.
- Archaic

Dubas hung his hat on the cap ceiling increasing every year. It was a colossal miscalculation and, to be fair, he couldn't have possibly seen the impending cap freeze.

The problem is, we're now irrevocably stuck to this Core with no desire and/or boldness to become unstuck.

This timeline (frank)ing sucks.

Oh, believe me, I'm well aware that I am not entitled a response from you (or anyone), I simply wished to throw my hat into the conversation.

Marner is not Patrick Kane and no amount of knuckleheads we add to the lineup is going to give him the space needed to succeed. Maybe he puts it all together at some point and learns how to play "truculent" hockey - but is the gamble worth 11.5M+ for 6-8 years?

As I said, the targeting reticle is on him because of his UFA status and being the last Core piece that isn't locked up for ridiculous bank.

You've said your piece, and I'm happy to engage with anyone who wants to agree/disagree with my position.

It's beyond aggravating seeing a player like Sam Reinhart - an excellent two-way forward who just scored 57 goals in a contract year - land a contract that is 2.5-3M less than what Mitch and Willie are earning (and no, I don't think FLA state taxes make that much of a the difference).

To wit: I hope the team lets Mitch walk and goes a different direction.
- mjones242

There is a distinct tax difference, though . .

Reinhart makes $8.625m and he takes it all in salary with no bonuses - which will net him a take home of $4.948m

Over the course of Marner's current contract, his signing bonuses average $10,159,667 and his salary averages $741,667. This nets him a take home of $5.07m - or in other words Marner currently will take home about $122k more than Reinhart but cost $2.3m more on the cap.

If Reinhart had taken Marner's deal in Florida he would make $1.55m more.

As people who have to work nearly a decade to see even a portion of that kind of cash, it sounds like "When you're already making that much, who cares?" money, but a lot of guys do. People use all sorts of measuring sticks to compare themselves to others and money is a big one. Everyone is different and everyone is motivated by different things.

Dubas hung his hat on the cap ceiling increasing every year. It was a colossal miscalculation and, to be fair, he couldn't have possibly seen the impending cap freeze.

The problem is, we're now irrevocably stuck to this Core with no desire and/or boldness to become unstuck.

This timeline (frank)ing sucks.
- mjones242

Dubas also overpaid matthews and marner. He created this mess.
Neither should have been paid over $10m at the time.

Marner wanted and has been paid a "make it happen" wage. That's where the criticism comes in, when you're paying a player a top 10 salary in the league people don't want to have to validate a need for other players to prop him up, be it having to open space for him or anything else.

He gets paid make your own space money, and he had no trouble signing for it.
- joel878

Well that's good because he's 9th in points in the NHL since he arrived in the league.

Having skill and talent is one thing. Your team needs to build around it in a way that it can be successful. It's why Edmonton got Hyman as an example. When McDavid isn't just flying into the zone all on his own, Hyman is going to the net, drawing defenders, creating net front chaos. If they take their attention away from Hyman, McDavid finds him on the back door. If they pay attention to Hyman they open a lane for McDavid. You don't always need a bruiser to create space - you need a guy who is occupying a place the other team doesn't want him to be. That often draws or distracts more than one person.

I wouldn't expect Marner to do it on his own anymore than I would expect Matthews, MacKinnon or McDavid to do it on their own. They are all elite and they all do it make it happen on their own from time to time, but to be sustainably successful you need a support system within your team. I don't feel the Leafs have built that in their forward group at all.

But let's see how this season with Berube plays out. Let's see what they can do or identify. If they can get Knies to drive the net and be a Hyman / Van Riemsdyk / Bunting type in front, I'd like to think it opens more opportunities.

Agree with everything here except the goaltending.

Remember how badly I wanted Hellebuyck last year? See what he did this year? If the Leafs had that type of goaltending this year, they could have beat Boston and given Florida a run for their money.

I think Stolarz was a big mistake in terms of his proven ability to be an insurance policy. Murray is a great plan C with no risk.

I think the Leafs really need to take a swing at Askarov. The Leafs need a back-up plan for Woll this season as well as for the future and Askarov could be capable of doing both for a limited cap hit.
- Rare_Jewel

You keeping sucking this guy off as "the answer" to all problems. You know the guy lost his net in back to back playoffs in the AHL? Maybe he can't handle the pressure of playoff competition.

However the asking price is super high and the preds have no reason to sell him now when they can trade him at the deadline or later.

Dubas also overpaid matthews and marner. He created this mess.
Neither should have been paid over $10m at the time.
- Fakepartofme

I agree on Marner. Disagree on Matthews. They were also paying for more potential and on that contract deal he got 60 goals and 69. I think 11.6 million is fair value for those type of stats.

There is a distinct tax difference, though . .

Reinhart makes $8.625m and he takes it all in salary with no bonuses - which will net him a take home of $4.948m

Over the course of Marner's current contract, his signing bonuses average $10,159,667 and his salary averages $741,667. This nets him a take home of $5.07m - or in other words Marner currently will take home about $122k more than Reinhart but cost $2.3m more on the cap.

If Reinhart had taken Marner's deal in Florida he would make $1.55m more.

As people who have to work nearly a decade to see even a portion of that kind of cash, it sounds like "When you're already making that much, who cares?" money, but a lot of guys do. People use all sorts of measuring sticks to compare themselves to others and money is a big one. Everyone is different and everyone is motivated by different things.
- Monkeypunk

im not duputing that, just thats its as big of a factor in players deisions. it might be a little bit for some.. but not the deal breaker.

if it is, I think its a bit short sighted, as thats not the only cost or tax implication to consider, also a player like Mitch can earn a lot outside of the Leafs. there is also after his career is done, lots of potential ways to earn money that you might not get as a panther for example

https://x.com/MapleLeafs/...tatus/1808531309351895163

Cincinnati our ECHL now

im not disputing that, just thats its as big of a factor in players decisions. it might be a little bit for some.. but not the deal breaker.

if it is, I think its a bit short sighted, as thats not the only cost or tax implication to consider, also a player like Mitch can earn a lot outside of the Leafs. there is also after his career is done, lots of potential ways to earn money that you might not get as a panther for example
- senstroll

im not disputing that, just thats its as big of a factor in players decisions. it might be a little bit for some.. but not the deal breaker.

if it is, I think its a bit short sighted, as thats not the only cost or tax implication to consider, also a player like Mitch can earn a lot outside of the Leafs. there is also after his career is done, lots of potential ways to earn money that you might not get as a panther for example

There is a distinct tax difference, though . .

Reinhart makes $8.625m and he takes it all in salary with no bonuses - which will net him a take home of $4.948m

Over the course of Marner's current contract, his signing bonuses average $10,159,667 and his salary averages $741,667. This nets him a take home of $5.07m - or in other words Marner currently will take home about $122k more than Reinhart but cost $2.3m more on the cap.

If Reinhart had taken Marner's deal in Florida he would make $1.55m more.

As people who have to work nearly a decade to see even a portion of that kind of cash, it sounds like "When you're already making that much, who cares?" money, but a lot of guys do. People use all sorts of measuring sticks to compare themselves to others and money is a big one. Everyone is different and everyone is motivated by different things.
- Monkeypunk

For what it's worth, Kent Hughes (Current Habs GM, former player agent) said that the disparity that comes with income tax isn't as significant as some make it out to be.

I'm sure there are ways to diminish that impact that, in the end, doesn't make the low income tax a significant factor in a player's decision to sign somewhere.

This being said, I have no idea, personally, how big that impact actually is.

I know it's so (frank)ing annoying. And it's become a cliche but the tax thing is (frank)ing real and it's becoming an increasingly bigger influence as the Cap/salaries increase.

Don't believe all the bullpoop about RCA's and other "tax balances" because they are not meaningful. High income earners like guaranteed cash so you're competing with 50c on the dollar vs. 65c on the dollar in no tax states. It's a massive advantage.
- The Law

It's certainly a conversation but at the same time a lot of people said Matthews was moving home due to taxes and being American. He signed here once again when he didn't have to. Clearly he either doesn't care about the taxes or has set up some tax havens for himself to make it negligible.

For what it's worth, Kent Hughes (Current Habs GM, former player agent) said that the disparity that comes with income tax isn't as significant as some make it out to be.

I'm sure there are ways to diminish that impact that, in the end, doesn't make the low income tax a significant factor in a player's decision to sign somewhere.

This being said, I have no idea, personally, how big that impact actually is.
- Scabeh

I mean I can see Reinhart going:

1. Just won a cup - Check
2. Great weather - Check
3. Family already settled - Check
4. A pay raise/adequate - Check
5. Tax free state? - Check

It could be that far down for a guy like that. Also maybe the Cats GM stole a page from Stevie Y on the one nice pair of jeans speech.

Would a Marner for Seth Jones (not necessarely 1 for 1) trade make sense for the Leafs? Would give them a RHD that can play top pair minutes and, despite his huge contract, still make Toronto save money.

I'm not saying it's a slam dunk greatest move ever but considering the risk involved of losing Marner for nothing....
- Scabeh

No...and (frank) you anyways.

The tax issue is very real. So is the environment - you want to walk out of the arena and enjoy sunshine and warmth - Florida is a fantastic state to be in and you walk away with more of your money. California is beautiful but you may more to live there.

But Scabs also noted a hard truth - internal cost structures set the tone. I've been told it isn't true but I've also been told it is - and I believe that there's some truth to the fact that Mitch was working on an 8x8 deal and then the Leafs signed Tavares and they told the Leafs they'd rather wait until the next year to work out a deal. That's a $3m mistake.

I also had heard that Matthews' first contract talks were in the $10m range but then they signed Tavares and it went up to $11.6m. That's a $1.6m additional burden.

Now in theory if they don't sign JT, that would have been about $15m extra to sign a 2C and improve goaltending and D. When I stab my finger on a timeline and say "that's where it went wrong," that's the spot I point to.

That said Nylander signed after Tavares and his $7.5m contract doesn't seem particularly influenced by JT. I still think Nylander has been pacing himself with Pastrnak's contracts.
- Monkeypunk

Funny, Golfing Since said this years ago and everybody told him to F OFF.

So why didn't Bob\s contract cost them? Maybe because he is a goalie I guess and not of the same position.

For what it's worth, Kent Hughes (Current Habs GM, former player agent) said that the disparity that comes with income tax isn't as significant as some make it out to be.

I'm sure there are ways to diminish that impact that, in the end, doesn't make the low income tax a significant factor in a player's decision to sign somewhere.

This being said, I have no idea, personally, how big that impact actually is.
- Scabeh

I'll be completely honest, I think a part of the reason it's still as big of a thing as it is when players sign contracts, is because NHL players are really, really stupid.

No, honestly. They hear all the things about no tax and whatnot, and they can understand that. But they don't understand how the work arounds happen or make sense, so instead of trying to understand it, they write is off as witchcraft.

Day 1 of 21.. 😖

I’ll be aight…

I'll be completely honest, I think a part of the reason it's still as big of a thing as it is when players sign contracts, is because NHL players are really, really stupid.

No, honestly. They hear all the things about no tax and whatnot, and they can understand that. But they don't understand how the work arounds happen or make sense, so instead of trying to understand it, they write is off as witchcraft.
- GreatGigInTheSky

The tax conversation is a weedy thing anyway. Matthews doesn't really count because he collects a bagillion dollars in signing bonus every July 1 when he resides in AZ and that's applicable to US federal and AZ state taxes. The rest of his salary is paid out based on where he's playing - so predominantly in Ontario taxes.

That doesn't mean that Mitch Marner, who is an Ontario resident, can't put a huge chunk of his bonus money into deferred retirement investments - he just can't touch that money without paying the full 53% taxes until he's 55 years old. But if he chooses to just take his signing bonus, it's applicable to the 53% rate at the time of payout.

Agents like to talk about how the whole thing is overblown because of the deferred investment funds - but if I'm in my 20s and I have a salary of $10m, I'd like to see a lot of it now not when I'm 55.

There is a distinct tax difference, though . .

Reinhart makes $8.625m and he takes it all in salary with no bonuses - which will net him a take home of $4.948m

Over the course of Marner's current contract, his signing bonuses average $10,159,667 and his salary averages $741,667. This nets him a take home of $5.07m - or in other words Marner currently will take home about $122k more than Reinhart but cost $2.3m more on the cap.

If Reinhart had taken Marner's deal in Florida he would make $1.55m more.

As people who have to work nearly a decade to see even a portion of that kind of cash, it sounds like "When you're already making that much, who cares?" money, but a lot of guys do. People use all sorts of measuring sticks to compare themselves to others and money is a big one. Everyone is different and everyone is motivated by different things.
- Monkeypunk

I think it was Howard Hughes or someone like that who, when asked how much money is enough, said just a little more.

Welcome to leafs nation cincy.

https://x.com/MapleLeafs/...csauoIci5ntvy6ym4V1w&s=19

No accountant worth their salt lets a millionaire player pay the correct amount of taxes they owe. Be real.