I'm glad you think you know more about hockey than some of the best players in the world.
- Monkeypunk

Yes that's exactly what I said.


I'm glad you (a guy who spouts off data non stop here) thinks people need to just shut up and accept the opinion of a star player from another team.

Opinions are like bum holes - everyone has them and most stink but everyone still gets to have one.

Moving on.

But, you're wrong, they've made piles of changes.

When this core started, they're second and third line centres were Kadri and Bozak. Their D consisted of Mo Rielly and GArdiner, Zaitsev, Polak, and Hunwick. JVR was first line winger. Gardiner was tossed because he was a turnover machine. the rest were just garbage. They've brought in Muzzin, Holl, Bogosian, Giordano, Connor Timmins, Brodie, among others. They've made attempts at rectifying the D, which was an obvious weakness (despite not having much budget to do so). Now I know you'll knock these, but Giordano was fresh off a Norris, Muzzin was in his prime on a recent cup team playing key minutes (ended up an injury problem). Some of these were very good attempts.

The team was criticized for being too soft, they've brought in Domi, Bertuzzi, Bunting, with various levels of success.

They've made a pile of changes, and have worked at addressing all the major holes.

Most of the recent cup winners, most of the core was together for quite a few years, and then added a piece or two to push them over the top. Colorado, mackinnon, rantanen, landeskog, they were avs for like a decade before they won. The only core piece they added was Makar (helluva good piece, yeah). The bolts had Stamkos, kucherov, Hedman, for like a decade too. Even Point and Vasi, who were probably the newcomers to the core, were there 5 or 6 years.

Florida making a major swap and launching them to the top is the exception, not the rule.

It would be nice to stumble on a Cale Makar or soemthing, but regardless, trading away elite players is not a path to win a cup. Adding to them is.
- prock

None of this is wrong.

90% of Florida's cup run was Bob finally earning his salary.

What power play?
- Whipper

Ba-da- tssssss!

None of this is wrong.

90% of Florida's cup run was Bob finally earning his salary.
- GalacticStone

You know, I remember 15 to 20 years ago, I'd wanna tear my hair out. They'd desperately need D, but would spend all their cap space trying to bring in a goal scoring winger, even though they never had a centre to pair him with. like Jason Blake or Joffrey lupul.


This may be looking at the bright side of things, but at least they're TRYING to fix the actual holes. Their signings at least have logic to them. Not just completely stupid signings and moves.

EDIT - oh, and for a time, they are actually drafting players, instead of dumping their picks for bandaids.

I knew a guy who had a blue number 17 tattooed over his heart and wore a full Leafs track suit to games.
- Zezel

A long time ago, while the earth was still cooling, the Eaton's at the Don Mills Mall went under.

For a while, the old Eaton's space was a bargain outlet for a National Sports.

One day I stumbled in there, and they were selling Toronto Maple Leafs tracksuits.

They were white. But a really shiny white. With that stupid TML logo that the Leafs used for a short period of time.

And they were dirt cheap. I can't remember the exact price, but I guarantee pants and jacket together were less than $20.

Naturally I bought one, and urged friends and family to do the same.

My brother bought one, as did a buddy.

Sadly, my suit has gone missing. I highly suspect my wife secretly threw it out.

My brother and my buddy both still have theirs, and it still looks as awesomely hideous as the day they bought it.

Man, now I'm bummed out.

Thanks a lot, Zezzie!

I think the Leafs need to trade for that guy Horton. You know, that guy that plays with Choochoo.
- prock

I should probably elaborate.

What i wrote there, was possibly the best phone call in the history of sports radio call in shows.

Was back in the day Joe Thornton was scoring like 100 assists and anyone they put on his wing was an instant 50 goal scorer.

The Leafs, of course, were garbage. They're talking how to fix the Leafs, and this guy calls in, and tells Andy Frost the Leafs need to "trade for Horton".

There is a silence, and Frost replies, "you mean Nathan Horton? How is he the key to fix this team?"

The caller replies "Yeah, Horton, that guy that plays with Choochoo".

Another gap as Andy Frost processes that this guy is not talking about Nathan Horton, rather, Joe Thorton, and then proceeds to lose it, going on a rant about the impossibility of trading for the Art Ross trophy winner and that sorta thing.

It was epic, and got replayed many many times.

I should probably elaborate.

What i wrote there, was possibly the best phone call in the history of sports radio call in shows.

Was back in the day Joe Thornton was scoring like 100 assists and anyone they put on his wing was an instant 50 goal scorer.

The Leafs, of course, were garbage. They're talking how to fix the Leafs, and this guy calls in, and tells Andy Frost the Leafs need to "trade for Horton".

There is a silence, and Frost replies, "you mean Nathan Horton? How is he the key to fix this team?"

The caller replies "Yeah, Horton, that guy that plays with Choochoo".

Another gap as Andy Frost processes that this guy is not talking about Nathan Horton, rather, Joe Thorton, and then proceeds to lose it, going on a rant about the impossibility of trading for the Art Ross trophy winner and that sorta thing.

It was epic, and got replayed many many times.
- prock

Only topped by when Stormin' Norman Rumack and "Mr. Boston" used to yell at each other for 15 minutes - which they did several times.

Sadly, Stormin' Norman has fallen on some pretty hard times.

https://betweentheposts.c...-pal-stormin-norm-rumack/

But, you're wrong, they've made piles of changes.

When this core started, they're second and third line centres were Kadri and Bozak. Their D consisted of Mo Rielly and GArdiner, Zaitsev, Polak, and Hunwick. JVR was first line winger. Gardiner was tossed because he was a turnover machine. the rest were just garbage. They've brought in Muzzin, Holl, Bogosian, Giordano, Connor Timmins, Brodie, among others. They've made attempts at rectifying the D, which was an obvious weakness (despite not having much budget to do so). Now I know you'll knock these, but Giordano was fresh off a Norris, Muzzin was in his prime on a recent cup team playing key minutes (ended up an injury problem). Some of these were very good attempts.

The team was criticized for being too soft, they've brought in Domi, Bertuzzi, Bunting, with various levels of success.

They've made a pile of changes, and have worked at addressing all the major holes.

Most of the recent cup winners, most of the core was together for quite a few years, and then added a piece or two to push them over the top. Colorado, mackinnon, rantanen, landeskog, they were avs for like a decade before they won. The only core piece they added was Makar (helluva good piece, yeah). The bolts had Stamkos, kucherov, Hedman, for like a decade too. Even Point and Vasi, who were probably the newcomers to the core, were there 5 or 6 years.

Florida making a major swap and launching them to the top is the exception, not the rule.

It would be nice to stumble on a Cale Makar or soemthing, but regardless, trading away elite players is not a path to win a cup. Adding to them is.
- prock

Am I wrong though? I said they haven't made enough BIG changes, emphasis on big. I agree with you whole heartedly that they have made many changes year over year but not enough of them were big/impactful changes and a lot of the reason they didn't make those big changes was directly tied to their financial constraints due to their cap allocation.

I loved the Muzzin add and woudl agree it was a pretty big move but a bit of too little of what was needed (they needed another Muzzin type). I liked the GIO add but he was essentially bargin bin shopping as they got him with a month left on his big contract with 50% retention and he then re-signed for league minimum. He also won the Norris in 2019 so 3 years prior (not super fresh) but all that said I was happy they got him and liked his play.

I agree the Leafs have for sure made lots of changes, but the bulk of those changes have been minor ones and again I chalk that up to them being tied to all that money on offense and no cap room to really balance out the team.

I think Dubas in the last couple years really tried to move things to where they probably needed to and need to be realizing the mistakes but it was too little (money) and too late and he and Shanny had a falling out and he was gone.

I don't disagree they have tried to fix the issues, they just don't have what they need to do it properly IMO - the required cap space.

Washington traded away talent from their 'core' before they won, other teams have done it. I just don't buy into the 'you can never trade away talent when you have it' and the Leafs have too much of it up front (or what they have costs too much you can view it either way) and not enough in the bottom 6, D and maybe between the pipes.

Maybe Florida has it figured out and that will be the new model?

Tampa Bay seemed to have a good grasp on when to let talent walk away and when not to.

Guess time will tell but don't get me wrong, I'm not saying MLSE hasn't tried to fix the issues, I'm just saying they don't want to do what they probably need to do to clear some cap space in order to fix it properly.

Cap space needs to be viewed as an asset, sure it's not as tangible an asset as a skilled player is but it's an asset that can be used to get you that skilled player.

Likely it doesn't matter, they won't move Willy, Marner or Matthews and keep paying them more and more contact to contract so the hope has to shift to that these players break through and maybe some of the cheaper players and guys on entry level deals have huge years and it all clicks.

Is it too early to worry about Knies next contract?

You know, I remember 15 to 20 years ago, I'd wanna tear my hair out. They'd desperately need D, but would spend all their cap space trying to bring in a goal scoring winger, even though they never had a centre to pair him with. like Jason Blake or Joffrey lupul.


This may be looking at the bright side of things, but at least they're TRYING to fix the actual holes. Their signings at least have logic to them. Not just completely stupid signings and moves.

EDIT - oh, and for a time, they are actually drafting players, instead of dumping their picks for bandaids.
- prock

Amen to this!

Yes that's exactly what I said.


I'm glad you (a guy who spouts off data non stop here) thinks people need to just shut up and accept the opinion of a star player from another team.

Opinions are like bum holes - everyone has them and most stink but everyone still gets to have one.

Moving on.
- Cush29

Cush, if it was one player it's easy to dismiss. When it's a collection of highly competitive, highly respected leaders who all want a player like Marner on their team? There's a pattern that's foolish to ignore.

And it's not just this year when suddenly the Leaf "faithful" have decided Marner is the whipping boy. Guys have been propping up Marner for years because he is that good.

Look I've said this before and I don't know why I'm repeating it because you feel the way you do and I feel the way I do, but when you want to shut down Toronto, who do you need to focus on? Who is the guy getting worked, getting double-teamed when he has the puck? It's not Matthews - who is our best player - it's Marner because he is the stick that stirs the drink. I do think last year he wasn't as mobile and it showed. And to be fair he seemed slower all year, so it is a concern to me -but . . .

Keefe did an abysmal job of finding ways to make room for him - and I've said before and whether you believe it or not, I'll say it again - Chicago made room for Patrick Kane. Kane didn't magically overpower other guys being 5'10 and 180 - he had guys running picks and creating lanes for him - something Keefe has not done a good job of in Toronto at all. I am sincerely hoping that Craig Berube finds some guys to help give Marner some space to operate. 'Cos it's not Matthews being parked in a soft spot waiting for a pass and it hasn't been Bertuzzi or Bunting - who were both busy falling down behind the net. Who is helping the puck carrier to move with the puck and find an opening? I hope this year we see a guy like Knies doing it. And if he can then I think Marner gets the chance to show us all who he is.

Only topped by when Stormin' Norman Rumack and "Mr. Boston" used to yell at each other for 15 minutes - which they did several times.

Sadly, Stormin' Norman has fallen on some pretty hard times.

https://betweentheposts.c...-pal-stormin-norm-rumack/
- Atomic Wedgie

yikes, didn't know that. That's terrible.

A long time ago, while the earth was still cooling, the Eaton's at the Don Mills Mall went under.

For a while, the old Eaton's space was a bargain outlet for a National Sports.

One day I stumbled in there, and they were selling Toronto Maple Leafs tracksuits.

They were white. But a really shiny white. With that stupid TML logo that the Leafs used for a short period of time.

And they were dirt cheap. I can't remember the exact price, but I guarantee pants and jacket together were less than $20.

Naturally I bought one, and urged friends and family to do the same.

My brother bought one, as did a buddy.

Sadly, my suit has gone missing. I highly suspect my wife secretly threw it out.

My brother and my buddy both still have theirs, and it still looks as awesomely hideous as the day they bought it.

Man, now I'm bummed out.

Thanks a lot, Zezzie!
- Atomic Wedgie

I'm kinda bummed I missed out on those track suits.

*Stares at my limited edition man cave featuring Goalvalchuk/Hossa/Lehtonen Jerseys and Heatley Car Bust*
- AdamFrench

oh boy

Am I wrong though? I said they haven't made enough BIG changes, emphasis on big. I agree with you whole heartedly that they have made many changes year over year but not enough of them were big/impactful changes and a lot of the reason they didn't make those big changes was directly tied to their financial constraints due to their cap allocation.

I loved the Muzzin add and woudl agree it was a pretty big move but a bit of too little of what was needed (they needed another Muzzin type). I liked the GIO add but he was essentially bargin bin shopping as they got him with a month left on his big contract with 50% retention and he then re-signed for league minimum. He also won the Norris in 2019 so 3 years prior (not super fresh) but all that said I was happy they got him and liked his play.

I agree the Leafs have for sure made lots of changes, but the bulk of those changes have been minor ones and again I chalk that up to them being tied to all that money on offense and no cap room to really balance out the team.

I think Dubas in the last couple years really tried to move things to where they probably needed to and need to be realizing the mistakes but it was too little (money) and too late and he and Shanny had a falling out and he was gone.

I don't disagree they have tried to fix the issues, they just don't have what they need to do it properly IMO - the required cap space.

Washington traded away talent from their 'core' before they won, other teams have done it. I just don't buy into the 'you can never trade away talent when you have it' and the Leafs have too much of it up front (or what they have costs too much you can view it either way) and not enough in the bottom 6, D and maybe between the pipes.

Maybe Florida has it figured out and that will be the new model?

Tampa Bay seemed to have a good grasp on when to let talent walk away and when not to.

Guess time will tell but don't get me wrong, I'm not saying MLSE hasn't tried to fix the issues, I'm just saying they don't want to do what they probably need to do to clear some cap space in order to fix it properly.

Cap space needs to be viewed as an asset, sure it's not as tangible an asset as a skilled player is but it's an asset that can be used to get you that skilled player.

Likely it doesn't matter, they won't move Willy, Marner or Matthews and keep paying them more and more contact to contract so the hope has to shift to that these players break through and maybe some of the cheaper players and guys on entry level deals have huge years and it all clicks.

Is it too early to worry about Knies next contract?

- Cush29

As I've tried to explain, yes, you are. You're wrong because the idea that a big change will somehow push this team over the top is flawed. The vast majority of times, it makes the team worse. You make major changes when you're giving up and rebuilding. You tweak when you have a collection of elite players.

As I said, most cup winners have had their core together for many years, and build on that. Colorado didn't trade Mackinnon or Landeskog when they were near the bottom, they built on that, and added.

Elite players are hard to acquire. you don't throw them away, you add to them.

I'm kinda bummed I missed out on those track suits.
- Zezel

Wish I had one so I could wear it while learning the bass line for Making It Work by Doug and the Slugs

Cush, if it was one player it's easy to dismiss. When it's a collection of highly competitive, highly respected leaders who all want a player like Marner on their team? There's a pattern that's foolish to ignore.

And it's not just this year when suddenly the Leaf "faithful" have decided Marner is the whipping boy. Guys have been propping up Marner for years because he is that good.

Look I've said this before and I don't know why I'm repeating it because you feel the way you do and I feel the way I do, but when you want to shut down Toronto, who do you need to focus on? Who is the guy getting worked, getting double-teamed when he has the puck? It's not Matthews - who is our best player - it's Marner because he is the stick that stirs the drink. I do think last year he wasn't as mobile and it showed. And to be fair he seemed slower all year, so it is a concern to me -but . . .

Keefe did an abysmal job of finding ways to make room for him - and I've said before and whether you believe it or not, I'll say it again - Chicago made room for Patrick Kane. Kane didn't magically overpower other guys being 5'10 and 180 - he had guys running picks and creating lanes for him - something Keefe has not done a good job of in Toronto at all. I am sincerely hoping that Craig Berube finds some guys to help give Marner some space to operate. 'Cos it's not Matthews being parked in a soft spot waiting for a pass and it hasn't been Bertuzzi or Bunting - who were both busy falling down behind the net. Who is helping the puck carrier to move with the puck and find an opening? I hope this year we see a guy like Knies doing it. And if he can then I think Marner gets the chance to show us all who he is.
- Monkeypunk

Agreed with the above.


But what about the oilers?
Lol
Just kidding

I like Marner, but Patrick Kane is and will go down as a much better player and it isn't that close (now).

I like Marner, but Patrick Kane is and will go down as a much better player and it isn't that close (now).
- AdamFrench

Welp, at Marner's age, Pat Kane was still considered Jonathan Toews' sidekick.

A long time ago, while the earth was still cooling, the Eaton's at the Don Mills Mall went under.

For a while, the old Eaton's space was a bargain outlet for a National Sports.

One day I stumbled in there, and they were selling Toronto Maple Leafs tracksuits.

They were white. But a really shiny white. With that stupid TML logo that the Leafs used for a short period of time.

And they were dirt cheap. I can't remember the exact price, but I guarantee pants and jacket together were less than $20.

Naturally I bought one, and urged friends and family to do the same.

My brother bought one, as did a buddy.

Sadly, my suit has gone missing. I highly suspect my wife secretly threw it out.

My brother and my buddy both still have theirs, and it still looks as awesomely hideous as the day they bought it.

Man, now I'm bummed out.

Thanks a lot, Zezzie!
- Atomic Wedgie

Actually wait, have you checked for your missing track suit in the basement beer fridge behind the lasagna?

Go Leafs Go

Welp, at Marner's age, Pat Kane was still considered Jonathan Toews' sidekick.
- prock

By TSN and CBC maybe.

Truth is - mitchy is one of the better offensive talents in the league. That doesn’t mean Leafs don’t have a good argument to chirp him for his performance come playoff time or embarrassing the bench vs Boston last year or just in general coming across as a whiny kid. He can be both a good offensive player (one of the better ones in the league (top 15 in my opinion) but also disappear and deserve the chirps.

I’m surprised Nate didn’t say what a coward mitchy turns into come playoff time. Or how Mitch is a giveaway machine who is nice and has poor puck management when tube and suave are taken away from sheer fear of being hit…weird how a player when asked had complimentary things to say.

So, if 34 is asked about Patches at camp and he speaks ti what a character guy he is and how he is a great player who can help the team - auto defer and take back the opinion that he’s a terrible sign? Cause there’s no way you know more than one of the best players in the league or an nhl GM? Also don’t look now - but every single one if the leafs leaders and best layers player 34, Willy, JT, mitchy, Mo - spoke to how important Reaves is and the role he plays and how they love having him because of the impact he makes on the ice.

….works both ways (the argument that the nhl player said it so it’s true)

Edit: I hear both sides of the argument but in all honesty when was the last time player A was asked about player B and said things like: he’s garbage, he’s a baby, he’s overrated, he’s decent, etc.? That happens but typically after a player like cousins does something stupid. Not in a light easy conversation before a game or in the off-season

Truth is - mitchy is one of the better offensive talents in the league. That doesn’t mean Leafs don’t have a good argument to chirp him for his performance come playoff time or embarrassing the bench vs Boston last year or just in general coming across as a whiny kid. He can be both a good offensive player (one of the better ones in the league (top 15 in my opinion) but also disappear and deserve the chirps.

I’m surprised Nate didn’t say what a coward mitchy turns into come playoff time. Or how Mitch is a giveaway machine who is nice and has poor puck management when tube and suave are taken away from sheer fear of being hit…weird how a player when asked had complimentary things to say.

So, if 34 is asked about Patches at camp and he speaks ti what a character guy he is and how he is a great player who can help the team - auto defer and take back the opinion that he’s a terrible sign? Cause there’s no way you know more than one of the best players in the league or an nhl GM? Also don’t look now - but every single one if the leafs leaders and best layers player 34, Willy, JT, mitchy, Mo - spoke to how important Reaves is and the role he plays and how they love having him because of the impact he makes on the ice.

….works both ways (the argument that the nhl player said it so it’s true)
- Big23Questions

Do you think a 36 year old veteran in the NHL who is a 6-time 30 goal scorer isn't going to garner some praise? It's not what they say it's what they said that they didn't have to and what they didn't that you might expect them to.

You know this as well.

dont forget the Power play
- senstroll

oh the insanity of that Leafs PP

Do you think a 36 year old veteran in the NHL who is a 6-time 30 goal scorer isn't going to garner some praise? It's not what they say it's what they said that they didn't have to and what they didn't that you might expect them to.

You know this as well.
- Monkeypunk

I added something to my first one that kinda answers this man - there’s no way when asked Nate would say: ya he’s alright. He’s gonna add in some extra stuff cause he can’t give a 2 word basic answer to the media. I’m not saying again that mitchy isn’t a real good offensive player that a player like Nate would love on their team. It would make sense that Col would - they already have bangers and guys that play with jam and workhorses (and all those terms… Muckers) they can afford a player that is a bit more timid like Mitch and makes some sweet plays from time to time and adds that offence depth…he wouldn’t need to be counted on on that team. That’s maybe a situation where he would thrive post season. Mitchy just being mitchy would be ok.

I added something to my first one that kinda answers this man - there’s no way when asked Nate would say: ya he’s alright. He’s gonna add in some extra stuff cause he can’t give a 2 word basic answer to the media. I’m not saying again that mitchy isn’t a real good offensive player that a player like Nate would love on their team. It would make sense that Col would - they already have bangers and guys that play with jam and workhorses (and all those terms… Muckers) they can afford a player that is a bit more timid like Mitch and makes some sweet plays from time to time and adds that offence depth…he wouldn’t need to be counted on on that team. That’s maybe a situation where he would thrive post season. Mitchy just being mitchy would be ok.
- Big23Questions

I wonder Sid said. I mean he would've been asked, too.

Probably said something like, "He's good. It's been fun."

Connor McDavid works out with Matthews. You think they haven't been asked about each other? The answers are bland enough that you never hear them.

Ryan O'Rielly went out of his way to talk about how he tried to encourage his GM to trade for Marner.

There's enough there that you can't dismiss it as idle chatter or media training.