Looks like I got the timeline a little wrong:

2002-03: Allison has major injuries to his knee, neck and a concussion. Only plays 26 games.

2003-04: misses entire season due to injuries

2004-05: Lockout

2005-06: Allison signs with Leafs, puts up 60 points in 66 games, but as we all remember, didn't score on a penalty shot where he skated very slowly, and Leafs Nation does what we do best: run our players out of town.

2006-07: JFJ does not re-sign him, saying his skating wasn't good enough. Doesn't sign with any other team, as he was going through a horrible divorce.

September 2009: invited to Leafs camp. Doesn't make the team.

I'm too lazy and busy to deeply research it but how many times has an NHL team who won the cup after the captaincy changed hands & the former captain was still on the team? It's not an occurrence that happens often (the captaincy changing and the former captain sticking around with that same team for a number of years)?

- Cush29

Dustin Brown, LA Kings.

Looks like I got the timeline a little wrong:

2002-03: Allison has major injuries to his knee, neck and a concussion. Only plays 26 games.

2003-04: misses entire season due to injuries

2004-05: Lockout

2005-06: Allison signs with Leafs, puts up 60 points in 66 games, but as we all remember, didn't score on a penalty shot where he skated very slowly, and Leafs Nation does what we do best: run our players out of town.

2006-07: JFJ does not re-sign him, saying his skating wasn't good enough. Doesn't sign with any other team, as he was going through a horrible divorce.

September 2009: invited to Leafs camp. Doesn't make the team.
- Atomic Wedgie

Allison was already one of the slower players in the league. Him slowing down as he aged and after his knee surgery was just piling on.

He still put up 60 points in 66 games - but was very, very minus.

That's the risk when you sign older, slower and ever slowing players - and that's all I was getting at.

Allison was already one of the slower players in the league. Him slowing down as he aged and after his knee surgery was just piling on.

He still put up 60 points in 66 games - but was very, very minus.

That's the risk when you sign older, slower and ever slowing players - and that's all I was getting at.
- Monkeypunk

And I completely agreed with you.

I'm not giving Tavares AAV of $4M on his next contract. Sorry, I know that he'll get much better offers, and I know everyone thinks I'm insane.

He can go somewhere else - going forward, he's not worth $4M to this team anymore.

And for the record, I liked Jason Allison. He was in Boston when I was living there - him and Thornton were fun to watch.

The only thing worse than this site on desktop is this site on mobile.

And the only thing worse than that is Chef Boyardee roller coasters.

I'm not sure that's true. In fact I'm positive he's not terrible defensively. His skating is an issue and limits him but he's a solid dzone C and has been used in that role pretty consistently the last few playoffs. IIRC, JT was most often the shutdown C last playoffs.

Not a direct comparison but I think his agent probably uses Giroux as a recent comp. Giroux was a year younger when he signed at 3x6.5 but he was a declining PPG centre turned winger like JT.

I think JT could do 2x5 or 3x4 and the Leafs get good value. There's no hurry - see how things play out this year. If they do bring him back they need to set things up for him to move to the wing though.
- The Law

I feel like the arguments I'm forced to make here make it seem like I hate JT when I'm just trying to be realistic about his limitations.

Tavares ranks - at age 34 - in the bottom 5th percentile of even strength defensive WAR among 1st line Centres. Claude Giroux, when he was signed by Ottawa at age 34, ranked in the 87th percentile of even strength defensive WAR among 1st line Centres.

Tavares provides much better offense and much better finishing than Giroux, but Giroux has always been a much better defensive player. The point is that you're not looking to JT to provide defensive depth. But as I said earlier if they can insulate JT with the right people and provide him with the right support and it doesn't cost that much (look at Pacioretty and Tavares together - neither is that fast, but they generally work).

JT will take a big haircut. He's got all the cereal $ to prop him up

JT will take a big haircut. He's got all the cereal $ to prop him up
- drexel

He might retire after winning the cup this season.

Dustin Brown, LA Kings.
- Atomic Wedgie

Indeed he stuck around after handing over the C good one!

Unfortunately for him / Kings fans and the Kings they haven't won a cup since 2014 (he gave up the C in 2016).

At some point, you also just have to figure out if the points are worthy of the play. If JT keeps slowing down, but can still put up the points, is it better than a guy with less points and talent, but brings speed and other things?

I think every team with aging superstars runs into this.
- AdamFrench

Is he really slowing down though? People keep saying that, but his shooting percentage last year was like 4% or something, career low I think.

I've always considered JT to be "slow", I mean, he never had top-gear speed, but somehow that hasn't impacted his game that much.

I think him transitioning to a 3C makes a lot of sense if they can keep the cap hit to something reasonable.

Let Marner walk and sign Rantanen as our 2C

I feel like the arguments I'm forced to make here make it seem like I hate JT when I'm just trying to be realistic about his limitations.

Tavares ranks - at age 34 - in the bottom 5th percentile of even strength defensive WAR among 1st line Centres. Claude Giroux, when he was signed by Ottawa at age 34, ranked in the 87th percentile of even strength defensive WAR among 1st line Centres.

Tavares provides much better offense and much better finishing than Giroux, but Giroux has always been a much better defensive player. The point is that you're not looking to JT to provide defensive depth. But as I said earlier if they can insulate JT with the right people and provide him with the right support and it doesn't cost that much (look at Pacioretty and Tavares together - neither is that fast, but they generally work).
- Monkeypunk

Curious - it reads like you're measuring JT's first 9 games this year against Giroux's entire age 33 season?

How does his defensive measurements work out for the past 3 years? 2021-2024?

Is he really slowing down though? People keep saying that, but his shooting percentage last year was like 4% or something, career low I think.

I've always considered JT to be "slow", I mean, he never had top-gear speed, but somehow that hasn't impacted his game that much.

I think him transitioning to a 3C makes a lot of sense if they can keep the cap hit to something reasonable.

Let Marner walk and sign Rantanen as our 2C

- gravyface

JT is a grinder with elite skill

I love that the Leafs have dropped six straight flying elbows on the Jets since the Sheiffle chirp.

Curious - it reads like you're measuring JT's first 9 games this year against Giroux's entire age 33 season?

How does his defensive measurements work out for the past 3 years? 2021-2024?
- The Law

Actually it measures JT at the 1000 game mark. (from this Twitter link from Jfresh: https://x.com/JFreshHocke...tatus/1734406988371488808)



And it compares it to this link when Giroux was signed by Ottawa (URL from Jfresh's Twitter: https://x.com/JFreshHocke...tatus/1547250396804124672)

Now as I said, there are things that Tavares does really well. The intent here isn't to say that he doesn't. But observably to me he is bad at defense, and these metrics captured and charted from All Three Zones by JFresh basically demonstrate that same thing.

Actually it measures JT at the 1000 game mark. (from this Twitter link from Jfresh: https://x.com/JFreshHocke...tatus/1734406988371488808)



And it compares it to this link when Giroux was signed by Ottawa (URL from Jfresh's Twitter: https://x.com/JFreshHocke...tatus/1547250396804124672)

Now as I said, there are things that Tavares does really well. The intent here isn't to say that he doesn't. But observably to me he is bad at defense, and these metrics captured and charted from All Three Zones by JFresh basically demonstrate that same thing.




- Monkeypunk

SO Jt's Defence is improving over time. Cool

Is he really slowing down though? People keep saying that, but his shooting percentage last year was like 4% or something, career low I think.

I've always considered JT to be "slow", I mean, he never had top-gear speed, but somehow that hasn't impacted his game that much.

I think him transitioning to a 3C makes a lot of sense if they can keep the cap hit to something reasonable.

Let Marner walk and sign Rantanen as our 2C

- gravyface

"Slowing down" manifests itself in many ways.

If his shot release is slowing down, that would explain the low shooting percentage.

Father Time is undefeated.

Actually it measures JT at the 1000 game mark. (from this Twitter link from Jfresh: https://x.com/JFreshHocke...tatus/1734406988371488808)



And it compares it to this link when Giroux was signed by Ottawa (URL from Jfresh's Twitter: https://x.com/JFreshHocke...tatus/1547250396804124672)

Now as I said, there are things that Tavares does really well. The intent here isn't to say that he doesn't. But observably to me he is bad at defense, and these metrics captured and charted from All Three Zones by JFresh basically demonstrate that same thing.




- Monkeypunk

Forgive me ..probably not reading it right but JT's looks like a 'projection' created in 2015? Atleast that what it says it is?

Basically it looks like a 9 yr old projection that projects JT to be a 350 lb pack a day smoker by 2022.

SO Jt's Defence is improving over time. Cool
- drexel

Thats actually a fair point - I was looking at the presented number which is his earlier number from when he was 23. He's at 25% now. Does being in the bottom quarter make it good? The point remains that he's not good at defense. You do see that given that you are a big Tavares booster. There's not an NHL player that doesn't have their shortcomings, so knowing them isn't saying the player is bad at hockey. Knowing them allows you have an opinion on their value to the team based on what the team needs.

R.I.P. Terri Garr.

Forgive me ..probably not reading it right but JT's looks like a 'projection' created in 2015? Atleast that what it says it is?
- The Law

It could be. I suppose? If that's the case then JFresh has never created a second card for this guy. That would be shocking.

Let me go see. I stand by what my eyes tell me, but for now I'll defer to the absence of data being an absence of proof.

It could be. I suppose? If that's the case then JFresh has never created a second card for this guy. That would be shocking.

Let me go see. I stand by what my eyes tell me, but for now I'll defer to the absence of data being an absence of proof.
- Monkeypunk

No worries ..I'm not trying to grind your opinion. I agree things are changing for JT. I think he can still be an effective #2C that ideally needs to transition into being a good top 6 winger. He's a plus on the PP b/c his mitts and brains are still elite. For me that's still more than you can buy for $4M on the market ..for a couple of years.

Thats actually a fair point - I was looking at the presented number which is his earlier number from when he was 23. He's at 25% now. Does being in the bottom quarter make it good? The point remains that he's not good at defense. You do see that given that you are a big Tavares booster. There's not an NHL player that doesn't have their shortcomings, so knowing them isn't saying the player is bad at hockey. Knowing them allows you have an opinion on their value to the team based on what the team needs.
- Monkeypunk

https://theleafsnation.co...-skaters-hardest-shooters

one year ago

JT is a grinder with elite skill
- Zezel

And your Grindr profile shows off your elite skills...

https://theleafsnation.com/news/nhl-edge-toronto-maple-leafs-fastest-skaters-hardest-shooters

one year ago
- drexel

Top speed and average speed are two different things. Just like how some cars go really fast in a straight line but can't keep that speed through corners.

Tavares has always been slow to get up to speed. And that's the problem. The way the game is played now, it's the first three steps that matter. Not how fast you can do a lap around the rink.

https://theleafsnation.com/news/nhl-edge-toronto-maple-leafs-fastest-skaters-hardest-shooters

one year ago
- drexel

He probably dropped his stupid amulet and was skating after it.